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For Social Transformation. Society Builders

Society Builders with
your host, Duane Varan.

Welcome to Society Builders and
thanks for joining the conversation

for social transformation.

Our last episode was the first part
of a two-part series exploring how

Abdul-Baha interacted with social
discourses of His day around the

topic of governance reform in Iran.

For these two episodes,
we've been listening to Dr.

Dr. Moojan Momen, one of the world's
leading authorities on the history

of the early Persian Baha'i community.

In part one, Dr. Momen

provided us with the background
and context to a series of books

written by Abdul-Baha, specifically
engaging with this governance discourse.

He explained how corruption was
rife and how Iran was in desperate

need for governance reform, largely
responding to the challenges and

opportunities associated with modernity.

Specifically, we explored two books
written anonymously by Abdul-Baha.

The first, the 'Secret of Divine
Civilization' explores the need for a wide

range of reforms, but frames this within
the context of this idea of governance

with integrity, that without a moral
and ethical framework, even the best

intended reforms will ultimately fail.

His second book, a 'Treatise on Politics',
which hasn't yet been transited into

English, was written in response to
the specific circumstances surrounding

the Tobacco Rebellion of 1891.

And here, Abdul-Baha provides warnings
of the dangers of clerical rule

in Iran, calling for a separation
of church and state, so to speak.

Now I'm not doing this last
episode justice in providing

you with this short summary.

So if you haven't heard it, I would
encourage you to listen to it before

you start today's episode because it
provides the background and context you

need to understand today's discussion.

So today we're going to listen to
part two of my interview with Dr.Momen

exploring the response from the
Baha'i community to the Guidance which

Abdul-Baha provided around governance
reform, how these early Persian Baha'i

believers responded and engaged in
society building in their time, and

what impact this ultimately had on the
society around it, including in the rise

of Iran's first democratic institutions.

But we'll also explore a key shift, a
key pivot for the community following

Abdul-Baha's advice to disengage in what
had become a highly divisive political

and contentious debate, how the early
Persian believers then shifted their focus

away from this kind of political reform
to social reform through the emergence

of the Baha'i schools and health clinics.

It's an incredibly exciting chapter,
so you're in for a real treat!

Now, Moojan jan.

In our last episode, you gave us the
background and context to the second

book of Abdul-Baha, which we've been
discussing. His 'Treatise on Politics'.

Now, I guess Abdul-Baha's Treatise
really speaks to two different

eras in this reform process.

Certainly there's the time
immediately after the Tobacco

Rebellion, from that period around
1891 to the turn of the century.

But then there's also that period
approaching the emergence of Iran's

first democratic institutions,

in that window between 1906 and 1908.
And a lot changes between those two

time periods. And the Baha'i community's
engagement with these issues changes

during those two time periods.

How did Baha'i interaction with this
discourse change over that period?

Momen: Well, during the 1890s and the early
1900s, there was a great amount of

debate going on within Iranian society
about this issue of reform, about what

to do, about the problems that Iran
faced, and the issues that were being

debated by the reformers matched many
of the Baha'i teachings. For example, the

importance of education, the advancement
of women, democracy, and so forth.

So there was a match between what
the reformers were saying and

what the Baha'i teaching said.

And in some places in Iran, Baha'is
actually became leaders of this debate.

The, the discussion that was going on.

And, and, and in some cases,
some of the leaders of the reform

debate actually became Baha'is.

So there was a, a lot of
intermingling going on there.

And throughout the whole of
Iran, there was a swelling

of, of this call for reform and it was
uniting all elements of Iranian society.

So everyone was calling for reform and
the momentum built up until there was

this, what was called the Constitutional
Revolution in 1906 to 07, during

which the Shah caved into the demands
for reform and a agreed to there

being a, a Constitution, creating a
a, a democratic form of government.

During this time, Abdul-Baha became
increasingly concerned about

the direction that events were
taking, particularly after the

Constitution was put in place in 1907.

And there were several reasons for this.

The most important, I think, was
the fact that before the granting

of the Constitution, as I say, the
whole country was united, the reform

movement was a bringing together
of all elements of, of society.

But once the Constitution was
granted, this unity fell apart

and conflicting factions
arose, and particularly some of

the religious leaders began to call
for a sharia-based Constitution.

In other words, a sharia based laws.

In other words, the, this new constitution
and, and the laws that will

be created under the Constitution
should be based on the sharia.

So there was that faction.

Then just at the time when the
Constitution was granted, the old

Shah passed away and a new Shah came
to power and he wanted to seize back

some of the power that had been taken
from the Shah in the Constitution.

So there was him.

And he gathered a faction around
himself and he actually joined

up with the clerics so that they
became, in effect, one faction.

Although there was obviously
a fundamental contradiction

between the Shah wanting to get

powers back to himself and the clerics who
wanted a Sharia based constitutional law.

And in effect, they, they became
the sort of determiners of governance.

And even among the
reformers, there was some

disagreements with someone sort of
pushing to the extreme and some saying,

'no, we, we have to keep moderate.

We want to keep everyone with us.

If we push to the extremes, we will
lose the backing of the population.'

So the whole of the, the unity
of, of the movement fell apart.

So that was one factor.

The second factor was that Abdul-Baha
became concerned that if the reforms

were seen as Baha'i inspired, if the
Baha'is became too prominent in the

Reform movement, people would attack the
Reform movement as being Baha'i inspired.

And this would be used to
discredit the Reform movement.

And so he was

concerned about this and, and, and
wanted the Baha'is to just hold back

a little bit on, on their advocacy.

Later

He also, because once the unity of
the reform movement started to fall apart,

He could see that the Baha'is were going to
be used as sort of pawns in the middle.

Each side was accusing the other
side of being Baha'is and Baha'i

inspired. So the reformers were saying that
the royalists, the, the supporters of

the Shah, were Baha'is and Baha'i inspired,
and that Shah and his supporters were

saying that the reformers were Baha'is.

Baha'i inspired and, and the whole

Reform movement was actually a
promulgation of Baha'i teachings.

So the Baha'is was going to get caught
in the middle of all of this and, and

would be persecuted by both sides.

So that was another concern of Abdul-Baha's.

And the third concern of Abdul-Baha
was the involvement of the, as Azalis

in the whole process of reform.

The Azalis were followers of Azal
who, as you know, was the

was the half brother of Baha'u'llah who
claimed leadership of the Babi

movement after the Bab, and who had
refused to acknowledge Baha'u'llah's claim

to be He who God shall make Manifest,

the, the figure that the Bab had
foretold, would, would appear.

And so these as Azalis were opposed, were,
were very much enemies of the Baha'is

and were were plotting always to try
and do some harm to the Baha'is and they

played a very important part in the.

Constitutional revolution
in, in the Reform movement.

They, they were, some of the leaders
of the Reform movement were either

themselves Azalis or had been
strongly influenced by the Azalis.

So there was this element also in
the reform movement that was causing

problems for the Baha'is and Abdul-Baha

became increasingly concerned about this
matter and once the unity of the movement

had fractured in 1907, very early in 1907,
Abdul-Baha began to advise the Baha'is to

withdraw from the whole political process;
to to disengage from this and to focus on

the social reforms. In other words, to withdraw
from the political process, but to

remain engaged with social reform.

So the Baha'is focused increasingly
on education, on building up

schools, on the advancement of
women, on building health facilities.

They that this time started to

build health clinics and, and try
to bring modern medicine to Iran.

They built modern baths to replace the
stinking unhygienic public baths that

were available in Iran at that time,
and replaced them with modern public

baths, with showers and, and cleanliness.

And they began to

elect their governing bodies, the
administrative councils that eventually

became the, the local assemblies.

They began to elect these,
and so therefore push

forward the idea of democracy.

So they, they were still engaged in the
reform process, but not in the political

aspects of the reform process, which was
becoming increasingly fractious and, and

the source of huge conflict in society.

Varan: That must have been a huge challenge
for the Baha'i community of the day.

I mean, navigating that transition
from being engaged with the political

reform process, you know, and then
when Abdul-Baha, of course, sees

that that process is derailing and

and advises the community
to disengage with it.

I mean, it's remarkable how
well the community did do that.

I mean, you have really very few
exceptions of seeing the Baha'i community

really shift, you know, in obedience to
this, this guidance from Abdul-Baha.

But it must have been
a difficult challenge.

I mean, they must have been very
excited by seeing the changes

that were starting to occur.

And then of course, they, they
had to navigate that transition

away from what was this disunifying
process that was in motion.

Momen: Yes, I think it was

very confusing initially, at any rate,
both for the Baha'is and also for the

reformers because they had seen the
Baha'is promulgating the same ideas that

they were promulgating and they couldn't
understand why now the Baha'is were

sort of withdrawing from the process.

So it was confusing for them as well.

And we have instances in, in Shiraz
and, and other places where that these

the leading reformers in the city
who sort of come to the Baha'is and

say, you know, 'what are you doing?

Why, why, why are you doing this?'

And so forth.

And there, there were undoubtedly a
few Baha'is who, well put it this way,

it was difficult to get this message
out across the whole community.

You have to understand, you know,
The means of communication

were very poor in those days.

So there were individual Baha'is
who, who continued to be engaged

in the political process and
who, you know, were unhappy to

to withdraw completely, but
they were a very small minority.

You could probably count less than
five people who continued to be

prominent in the reform process.

After Abdul-Baha had issued these
instructions, most of the Baha'is did

comply and did withdrawal from politics.

And although it was very hard initially in
retrospect, one can see that it was necessary.

Some writers have claimed that the
Baha'is, by withdrawing from politics,

missed out on the chance of leading the
pro political process of being an

influential factor in Iranian society.

But in retrospect, we can see that it
was the right thing to have done because

to have become engaged in this fractious
political process, it would've been

to endorse and become immersed in the.

In that process, which was so competitive,
so divisive, so fractious, that process

was becoming increasingly fractious in
Iran as indeed it is in many parts of

the world, and it would've meant buying
into and helping to perpetrate the

sort of hierarchical social structures

that we see today are
demonstrably falling apart.

Neither the political process nor
the social structure that that Baha'is

would've been endorsing, if they
had entered the political process,

was the sort of thing that Baha'ullah
and Abdul-Bahar had had in mind.

It wasn't the mission of Bahaa
and Abdul Baha to be reinforcing

that failing system and

Abdul-Baha rightly perceived that
the right thing to do was to withdraw

from that in order to build an
alternative that Baha'is needed to

disengage from the political process.

Otherwise, it would've sucked them in
and subverted them, and they needed to

disengage from that in order to build

a new type of society in which
leadership wasn't with individuals.

Whether you're talking about
religious leadership or political

leadership, it wasn't with individuals.

It was through consultative
processes, collective decision making,

collaboration rather than competition.

All of these things that we
now realize are part of the

community building process could
not have occurred if the Baha'is had

remained within that highly fractious,
highly competitive political process.

The Baha'is needed to disengage from the
political process in order to advance

their true aims, which was to build a
radically different type of society.

Varan: You can see this modern parallel,
I think with the struggles of what

some of the Baha'i believers must have
felt at that time, you know, seeing

the influence of the Faith in this
reform process, but then seeing its,

its, its limitations and, and,
and, and being caught in that struggle.

And you can see some modern
parallels with Baha'is who may feel

like, you know, the, the society around
us needs us and there are ways that we

can contribute. But by the same token,
the political processes are just so

wrong, and you can see how that same
kind of problem exists even today.

So there, there is a lesson there in
the example which Abdul-Baha provides,

which I think has a very modern
parallel for Baha'i communities today.

Momen: Yes.

I think that's the, the big lesson

that you can draw from all of
the discussion we've been having.

That, that, first of all, Abdul-Baha's
treatise, the, the Secret of Divine

Civilization is just as relevant today as
it was when it was first written in 1875.

We're still struggling
with this issue of, of the

values and, and what should be the
sort of fundamental values of our

society and, and from where are
we going to draw those values and

the role of religion in society.

All of these discourses that Abdul
Baha enters on in that treaties

are still relevant today, are
still very much needed today.

And we can draw a lot of inspiration
from what Abdul-Baha wrote about in

that book of, of you can't just have.

Political

or even social reforms.

You've also got to have the individuals
transformed in order for those

reforms to, to work, in order to
have real social progress, in order

to have communities, united
communities that are progressing.

So all of those sort of issues
that He talks about are important.

We can see today the importance,
particularly in Iran of His call

for religious leaders not to get
involved in the political process and

how disasterous it it is for a country

if religious leaders start to involve
themselves in politics. And we can see

the importance of his call for the Baha'is
to disengage from politics because it's

so divisive because it's so
competitive, because it's the very

antithesis of the sort of society
that Baha'is are trying to build, which

should be based on consultation and
collaboration and unity rather than the

divisiveness, which a present day
political system in every part of

the world creates. This increasing
polarization of the community, the, the,

fractious and, and heated nature
of the debates that go on and the way

they degenerate into just name calling
and, and personal attacks and so on.

All of these things

we're going on in Iran at the time
that Abdul-Baha called for the Baha'is to

disengage from the political process.

And they're going on today.

And for exactly the same reasons, Baha'is
need to keep outta that political process

and concentrate on community building,
society building, and the sort of

general Plans that, that the Universal
House of Justice is setting before us

as a way of creating an alternative that
people can turn to as they increasingly

see that the answers are not gonna come
outta the political processes that are

going on in their, in their societies.

Varan: So just, wrapping up today,
what impact do you think

these, these various forms of
guidance that Abdul-Baha provided across

the Secret of Divine Civilization,
you know, this Treatise on Politics

and and and His other Council.
What impact do you think that

ultimately had on Iranian society?

Well, it's, it's very difficult to
say because, as I said, Abdul-Baha

published, both treatises were
published anonymously, so the impact

was not to advance knowledge of the
Baha'i Faith directly and indirectly.

We know people who read these
treatises, but we don't know what.

Impact it had on them.

They were published, they
were circulated there

and because they'd been published
anonymously, they could be freely

circulated among individuals in society.

So the Baha'is were handing them out to
influential people, particularly

those people who were engaged in the
debate on social and political reform.

So all of that was going
on, but, but we, we have.

Very specific examples of ways in which
it may be that the, that the Baha'i

teachings were influencing the reformers.

For example, in the early stages of the
Constitutional revolution, one of

the demands of the reformers was that
in every town and village, an

Edelat Khaneh should be established.
Now Edelat Khaneh literally translated means

House of Justice. The Baha'is
use the Arabic term Beyt-ol-Ahd, but

it's just the Persian for Beyt-ol-Ahd.

So these reformers were calling
for each village and town to have

a house of justice, to be the

place where every individual
could go to for justice.

Now, you know, where had
they got that idea from?

It was, you know, it hadn't
come out of thin air.

They had obviously been talking to Baha'is,
they'd been reading the Baha'i Writings.

They had seen this concept
that Baha'u'llah had introduced

in that and in others of His
Writings and they had thought, 'well,

this is a good idea'. And they put it, and
they were putting it forward as part of

their program, as part of their agenda.

Varan: you can't have a lot
of debate about House of

Justice being Baha'i terminology.

That's clearly, clearly
Baha'i terminology for sure.

Momen: Yeah, yeah.

So, so, you know, we've got
evidence, but, but, but you know,

how extensive it was and so on.

It's, it's impossible to say.

I think we can continue to collect
evidence and get, get, gain a better and

better understanding as time goes by.

But at this stage of any rate of
our research is, I don't think

anyone can say, definitively, how
widespread the influence of these?

Well, we know the influence of the
ideas was widespread, but you know

what it effect it actually had
on what was being said and done.

I don't know.

I don't think we can say specifically,

Varan: Of course the influence of the
community - of the Baha'i community,

you know, there are, there are some
really very particular dimensions

to that, particularly I think
two areas which, which stand out.

One is the inclusion of women

in the national discourse, which
really was a very unique kind of

Baha'i contribution, if you will.

And the other is the participation
of the regional areas in Iran.

I mean, a lot of the reformers, of
course, would've been having these

debates in Tehran, but it was the Baha'i
community that really helped make that

a national discourse rather than, you
know, the discourse of a community.

Could you, could you talk about
those two particular strands

of, of the reform movement?

Momen: Yes.

I, I think the Feform movement was
really a very small number of individuals

who were talking mainly in Tehran, but
also there were, there were groups of

reformers here in all of the major cities,
but, but only the larger cities and.

As I've said, they, they, they
were talking to the Baha'is.

The Baha'is were part of the movement.

The conversations were going on.

For example, we know in Esfahan, the
reformers were actually meeting in the

home of the leading Baha'i of Esfahan.

So his home was the
center of the reform debate.

In Sari, all of the leaders
of the - that's the capital

of the province of Mazandaran -
all of the leaders of the

reform movement, but almost all of the
leaders of the reform movement were Baha'is

and, and they were, they opened up a, a
library in the town where people

could go and read the reformed newspapers
that were being published and, and

discuss the issues that were being raised.

So, The Baha'is were very active. But
what the Baha'is were doing, which the

reformers had no ability to do, was to
also take this debate down to the level

of the small towns and the villages
of Iran, because the same teachings

of the advancement of women, the

importance of education and so on,

were being also promulgated by the Baha'is
and the small towns in, in the villages.

And these reformers, they were
intellectuals who were in the large

towns, but they had no, they, they
couldn't reach to the smaller towns and

villages and promulgate these teachings
across such a, a wide area of Iran.

So it was the Baha'is who were
taking that debate to the small

towns and villages in, in Iran.

And among the teachings
that they they were

promulgating, as you've mentioned,
is, is the advancement of women.

This was something that, it was
certainly mentioned in the, in the

writings of some of the reformers.

Not so much in the early phase in
the sort of 1860s and 70s and

80s, but as we come closer to the
time of the Constitutional Revolution

and, you do start to see this hit.

In the debate among the
reformers, but again, it was the Baha'is

who were sort of at the forefront of
this and, and were leading the debate

in respect to the, the advancement
of women in, in society, that there

were some prominent women among these
people who were debating this matter

who were Baha'is. Tahereh khanoom, in
Tehran for example, was writing

articles in the reform newspapers
and journals and, and she was very

prominent in, in the discourse
that was going on in, in Tehran.

So, so there were individual women
who were taking this forward and there

are lots of other ways in which the.

Baha'is were taking this forward, for
example, by building schools for girls.

And the example of of some of
the American Baha'i women who actually

came to Iran, settled in Iran and helped
the Baha'is both to build schools and

to build medical facilities in Tehran.

They're, they're very
presence in Iran

was was a model for Iranians
to look at and see that yes,

it was possible for women to

play an active role in society, to
be educated, to mix freely with

men without corrupting the morals
of, of, of society and so on.

So, the, the Baha'is were sort
of, as it were, exemplifying the

sort of thing that the rest of
Iranian society could, could achieve.

Varan: That's fantastic.

Just as, as, as we're saying this, Moojan,
I think it has such an interesting,

has such interesting implications for
today, you know, and the

discourse, the national discourse in Iran
today around the role of women. And, you

know, you see this influence that the
community had really in, in the origins

of this debate in Iranian society.

Momen: Yeah.

Yeah.

I think it's something that, that Iranians
themselves are increasingly recognizing

that the Baha'is have been written out
of Persian's history to a large extent.

They've been sort of completely ignored,
but just in the last 10 years or so,

people have started to look
back and say, 'yes, the Baha'is

were actually quite important.

They did play a role, they were
contributing to society' and,

starting to look at these histories
and reassess the role of,

of Baha'is in Iranian history.

So I think that that
is starting to happen.

There's a long way to
go still, but it is starting.

Varan: Thanks again for joining us
today, Moojan Jon, it was such

an enlightening experience.

Momen: Well, thank you for inviting me.

Tt's been a pleasure.

Varan: Before closing today, I think it
would be good for us to reflect a

bit on the amazing history that Dr. Momen

has shared with us across these
two episodes, because there's so

many things we can learn from it that
have direct implications for today.

First, of course, is the whole
idea of governance with integrity.

I think people worldwide feel
this need now more than ever.

It's what is most lacking in our
political institutions of the day.

Second is the history of the rise of
Iran's first democratic institutions

and the influence that the early
Baha'i community had in this evolution.

This is clear in the vocabulary of the
movement, referring to representative

bodies, for example, as Houses of Justice.

It's clear in the reform agenda.

And it was the Baha'i community that truly
made this a national discourse reaching

even small towns and villages rather than
limiting it to the capitol and to a few

major cities where these intellectual
reformers were debating their ideas.

So it's Baha'is who take it from
being an intellectual discourse

to a national discourse.

So here too, we see that

in their society building initiatives
around governance reform, the

early Persian believers had
impact, even if we can't map the

exact extent of this influence.

Third, we see the integration of
a discourse on the advancement

of women weaving its way into the
reform process, primarily as a

direct result of the engagement of
the early Persian Baha'i community.

This takes on a particular significance,
I think, today where the question of

the rights of women has taken center
stage in Iran, so it's remarkable,

particularly in this context, to understand
that the genesis of this discourse around

the rights of women in Iran can be traced
back to the effort of these early Baha'is

in their society building initiatives.

Fourth, we can see Abdul-Baha's
warnings about the consequences to the

progress of the nation if governance
is facilitated by Iran's clerics.

This, I think, is truly prophetic.

Now, the Iranian Revolution gives
us the opportunity to test

Abdul-Baha's assertion here today.

The clerics do rule Iran.

They have

for over 40 years, and I'll leave
it to you to weigh its consequences

for the progress of the nation, the
effect this has had on the human

rights of its citizens, on its material
progress, on the state of its natural

resources, on the rights of women, on
Iran's global standing and reputation.

I mean, I'll leave it to you to draw your
own conclusions, but it does allow us

to clearly test Abdul-Baha's assertion.

So here too, we see how incredibly
relevant this warning from

Abdul-Baha was even a hundred years later.

And finally, and perhaps most important,
I think this pivot of the community

in disengaging with the political
reforms once these movements became

so divisive, has important lessons
for the Baha'i communities of today.

It's hard being a Baha'i and seeing
so much injustice all around you.

It's always tempting to want to
join in the protests of the day,

working to bring justice by seeking
to punish the aggressor, removing

governments engaging in such injustice.

But as hard as it is, it's
important for us to understand

that this is not our role.

We uphold principles, but we're not in
the business of opposing governments,

even those that persecute us, and this
is often a difficult path for us to walk.

We'll discuss this more
in future episodes.

But for now, just put yourself in the
position of these early believers.

They're seeing the ideas they've
been advocating for, suddenly finding

widespread acceptance, and they must
have been incredibly eager to engage

with the social action of the day.

But Abdul-Baha advised against this.

He asked the believers to disengage as
the process had become too divisive.

And the community, in obedience, shifted its
focus from political to social reforms.

There's a lesson for us in
this example, and it's a lesson

that's incredibly timely.

We'll all be challenged trying to
figure out how to navigate through

the social issues of the day without
being consumed by them and by still

maintaining our unifying framework.

Again, this is a topic we're gonna
explore much more fully in future

episodes, but for now, let's just look
to and admire the historical example we

see in these early Persian believers.

So we've learned a great deal across
the course of these two episodes.

In our next episodes, we're going
to continue our dialogue with

Dr. Moojan Momen, but this time we'll be
focusing on the social reforms in Iran.

That followed primarily focusing on
the evolution of Baha'i schools in Iran.

It's a remarkable story, perhaps
our best example of society building

yet in the history of our Faith.

So I'm sure that it's a history
that will truly inspire you.

So thanks again to Dr. Momen

and thank you for joining us today.

Don't miss our next exciting
episode of Society Builders.

Society Builders pave the way - for a better world for a better day

A united approach to building a new society. There's a crisis facing humanity.

People suffer from a lack of unity.

It's time for a better
path to a new society.

Join the ocnversation, for social transformation

Society Building.

So engage with your local
communities and explore all the exciting

possibilities, we can elevate

the atmosphere in which
we move. The paradigm is shifting.

It's so very uplifting.

It's a new beat, a new song, a brand new
groove. Join the conversation, for social transformation.

Society Builders

The Baha'i Faith has a lot to say.

Helping people discover a
better way with discourse and social

action framed by unity.

Now the time has come to lift our game and apply the teachings of the Greatest Name and rise to meet the glory of our destiny.

Join the conversation. For social transformation. Society Builders